A Fruitful Dialogue with Andy

The following is an email exchange I had with someone over a period of a few weeks. It is a good example of someone who was willing to leave the familiar territory of non-dual platitudes and follow the pointers into the unknown and unknowable. His risk paid off.

Q: I totally see the “drop everything” feeling, I get that, to the point where I feel, why hold onto anything? However, one hook I seem to have that holds me from a complete release is the investment in this Me, and a swell of thoughts in particular about my responsibilities to family, etc. Did you find this? And ultimately was it just a case of, it happened? There really is nothing you can do to make anything happen, right?

A: Well, it is not true that there is nothing you can do. As long as the "I" is believed in, the "I" has a job – to find out it is not real! So don't put aside your ambition just yet – it can still serve you at this point.

I really can't help you beyond just encouraging that you be as honest as you possibly can with yourself.

Why do you think that I no longer feel a "pull" from responsibilities of the world? Do you have a guess about that? What do you imagine it is that makes me no longer feel any attachment to things of this world? And is that what you want?

Q: Thanks for the reply. You’re right, I really do need to sit with this and be honest.

My assumptions are a hindrance for sure, and I went over the questions, and to be honest, I could come up with many reasons, however they lead nowhere, or into more questions.

What it is I want, really, is to be over searching for something, a feeling of missing something. For me the search has been to find out why I can never be happy with myself or circumstances, and there is a real lack of perceived control over my thoughts, feelings, and desires. The spiritual search on the surface promises to lead you from these, and the promise of liberation or enlightenment is an end goal of attainment.

Yet I also know this is all false.

The simplicity of what you point to feels right.

Did meeting John Wheeler help? Was there some kind of transmission that took place from your meeting him? 

A: The core of your question seems to be: “I seem to never be happy, and that is not okay with me!” I think that was the same thing that drove me. It didn’t seem like the way life was supposed to be.

So somewhere inside you, you know that it is possible to be happy. And it is. But the key is knowing what you’re dealing with. Look very closely at your unhappiness. Look at your suffering and understand the nature of it. When suffering arises – whether it be the frustration of searching, or just the day-to-day stuff of dealing with responsibilities – look closely at it. What is this suffering saying to you? How does it manage to suck you in? Is it real? What is your suffering made of?

You’ll eventually find that there isn’t anything really there. And then it’s over. No more suffering. Nobody can do this for you. You have to do this looking for yourself. You have to “bust” your own suffering, yourself. It’s up to you. You’re the detective.

Nothing about being with John did anything for me in the way you’re thinking. It was all just my own detective work, later validated by Bob, John, and Stephen as I doubted what I was finding. They helped me dispel my doubts. It seems so crazy to find out that there never was any suffering in the first place, that it is helpful when someone is there to say, Yes, it really is true. But I reiterate, no one can do this work for you. You are your own guru.

Any talk of “transmission” is for the lazy of heart and mind. They are after a good feeling. This is not about a good feeling, because good feelings pass. When you disassemble your own mechanism of suffering, it is permanent. No permanent anything happens by being in someone’s presence. A “shift” might happen, but not permanently. It goes. And when it goes, oh brother, will that person freak out! “I had it, and now I’ve lost it!” Don’t go that route.

Look at your dissatisfaction and simply find out about it. Your whole idea of “you” and “unhappiness” are part of the same false idea. Look at the unhappiness, and you will find that neither it nor you were ever real.

Look for yourself. Don’t go looking for shortcuts or popular gurus to worship. That’s all pure bullshit and you’ll be wasting your time, continuing to suffer while you do all that. Just stop and look inside at what is going on. What’s the mechanism of unhappiness? Do you understand what I’m suggesting?

Q: One thing that confuses me: You said “I” need to bust my own suffering? This implies duality.

A: Dude, too many concepts. “This implies duality”???? Come on. You’re sitting on a chair. Does it “imply duality” to say “I’m sitting on a chair”? Quit with the jargon.

Q: Does the looking or awareness on this false “I” shine light on the false?

A: Jargon, jargon.

Q: The longer you focus the awareness, which I can’t define as a thing or identity.

A: Jargon, jargon.

Q: So it’s just the looking, the seeing of what is going on...

So the “I” is beneficial as it focuses the awareness on itself basically?

A: Jargon, jargon.

Q: So the longer “I” can do this...

A: Huh?

Q: I see now there is no use in thinking about this...thinking is no help. Purely focus, be aware of all the coming and going of “Me.”

A: Who said? I didn’t say that.

Q: So determination of myself (which is false) can ultimately burn itself up in the light of reality, even though I'll never understand this reality by my mind.

A: I didn’t say this. I said, look at your suffering and see what it is made of. That was my central point and yet you didn’t even mention it! You didn’t even hear me. Instead you just went right back into your comfortable little buzz phrases. If you’re not going to read my emails, I’m not going to correspond with you.

You ignored this from my first email as well:  

”Why do you think that I no longer feel a ‘pull’ from responsibilities of the world? Do you have a guess about that? What do you imagine it is that makes me no longer feel any attachment to things of this world? And is that what you want?”

I asked you these questions for a reason. Trying to answer them, and not just replying with whatever you want to say, will be helpful to you. I'm trying to break you out of where you are stuck. But I can't if you're going to ignore what I write. 

Q: Yeouch. It's weird ...sorry

I agree on the whole guru transmission thing. I really only meant, like you said, a validation – to meet someone to only really validate this direction,  I suppose. I hope I'm following.

A: As I said, look at your suffering and see what it is made of.

Q: Okay, when I look, suffering is thoughts, lots of them.

A: Thoughts. Can thoughts hurt you?

Q: They come in torrents, I listen

A: You listen. Do you have to listen? It’s a habit, but a habit can be broken.

Q: and my body feels awful

Tight and agitated

They come at anytime, but work best on me when low on energy

Almost like they sap my energy

I get angry, hate the world, hate me even, and agitate all that is around me..

There is no love, just hate

I can't find peace, I want to turn it off but somehow can't, as if these thoughts, feelings are mine only and I deserve them all, as I'm not good enough anyway

I've tried to ignore, it gets louder and takes over easier

I've tried to be a witness…

A: Jargon. Forget “witness.” Don’t name it. Just let it be without a name.

Q: …but I get pulled in as I can’t separate from the thoughts, it’s like there is nothing but the thoughts; the thoughts are me, no one else to say stop listening

I am these thoughts, as there isn’t anyone else here

I suffer...

Yet I want out

I hear people say, come here, listen, I know

I understand intellectually...well, I think I do. I'm jargon-filled, as you pointed out

I was kinda afraid to go here

A: But you did. Good for you.

Q: I really don’t know what to do anymore, I can’t see a way out of this cloud of suffering

Thoughts are real as I feel them, it’s tangible

A: Think of an apple. Now, can you take a bite out of that apple? You see, thought does not create things in reality. An apple you can eat is not a thought.

Q: When I hear thoughts aren’t real, why not? I can’t see why not.

A: Thoughts are real as thoughts, but they do not create anything. You get tense and agitated believing that thoughts create something real that needs to be battled or worried about.

Find out that the thoughts do not create anything. Did they create an apple? Do they create a real “undeserving Andy”? Is there really an undeserving Andy?

Q: Suffering = thoughts, memories, past and future projections, and the thought of me and I is the root...

A: Does the thought “I at the root” create an “I”?

Q: …and this root, well it’s me, I can’t see it per se, but I know it’s there. How else could I think in the first place?

A: None of that implies that thought creates something real.

Q: Suffering = My life!

A: So if you find out that suffering does not really exist, your life will be free of suffering and transparent. So that’s what we’re really trying to do: find out that suffering does not really exist.

So far you have found your suffering is your thoughts. Okay, that leads you to your next job, examining the thoughts. The same way you did with the suffering. You don’t need to lay it out to me, you can just do this for yourself. Just keep prying under the thoughts, the suffering thoughts AND the happy thoughts. They are all the same. 

Q: Yes, I want more than anything out of this madness

A: What do you think is different about me? Why do you think I don’t suffer? I have the same stuff, don’t I? A body, relationships, responsibilities. But why do you think I don’t suffer about any of it?

Good for you, for looking at this, Andy. Good job.

Q: I imagine you have found what you were searching for…

A: And what does that look like? What is my life like now?

Q: …yet I hear “you are what your searching for,” and this I guess you have figured out.

A: What does that mean? What did I figure out? What was I searching for?

It is a thing? Is it a state? Is it an experience? Is it a thought? What do you imagine it is for me?

Q: Can't be a thing; things come and go

Again states also are transitory

Again experiences too come and go

Thoughts also transitory

It’s got to be the opposite of transitory..

That which comes before..

A: Forget all the words you’ve ever learned. You need to make room for your own thoughts, your own assessments, to come in.

That’s why I’m asking you to entertain these questions, and ask your own imagination to come up with something. Replace the buzz phrases with something that actually has meaning to you – that comes from you.

Q: So how is it for you? I mean I can’t imagine it...

A: So you’re not going to try?

What’s different? Person A is suffering, Person B is not. What are some possibilities?

Just brainstorm. One possibility is that I’m mentally ill, right? Probably not the solution, but this is what I mean by brainstorming. Just think of what the possible differences could be. Play with it.

Q: The only way thoughts can't hurt you is if they’re not taken to be real.

A: Good start. Thoughts can be real, as thoughts, but 1) they don’t create any things or events in the world, and 2) there is no separate “you” for any thoughts, or any things or events of the world, to hurt. So really, thoughts are just irrelevant. There is no "you" to be hurt by them or anything else.

Q: You must still have thoughts, you still have a body, etc., like you said…

I can sit here and replay the past...however I can see now that they’re not real, it’s a replay

and I can think about tomorrow, will I still have a job…if I don’t blah blah

I entertain so much crap !!

A: And it all pertains to an Andy that you believe can be hurt, because you believe Andy to be a separate entity. So all the thoughts derive power from that one belief “I am a separate entity.”

Q: So what is real…

Can life just flow in this moment, everything that needs to be done is done, but in the only time that has existence, when it happens?

A: Yes. Exactly.

Q: You have no control...but isn’t control just another useless thought (and here I’ve said they’re not real)?

A: Good.

Q: Once you prove without a doubt your thoughts are unreal, they have no power.

A: Right. And do you recognize that “Andy” is only a thought? The idea of a separate person who needs something is only a thought. Does the thought actually create a “you”?

Q: so life is now in control...what happens happens 

an example: wife asks if we can borrow money for home project, thoughts go crazy, no, bad time to borrow, do we need that extension, what if  I lose my job the economy is bad, blah blah, okay so I'm now totally debilitated, totally stuck, I've reasoned it’s not a good idea, but I know it'll cause a long-winded argument if these reasons are not agreed with…

A: Is there really a problem here? Is there a problem with any of this thought-storm? Or is it just a thought-storm?

Q: Suffering to the max!!

A: There is a thought that this is suffering. Is it? Or is it just some passing thoughts? Who would this "suffering" hurt? 

Q: Now if I didn’t entertain those thoughts, who says yes or no??

A: No one says yes or no. There is some talk happening between husband and wife. Some stuff happens. You are there, and you see what happens.

Q: This is where thoughts are like my control...

A: Look and see if you are actually controlling the words that are coming out. Look and see if you are really controlling the next thought that comes into your head. Are you really in control?

Q: I'll feel guilty and suffer whether I take any thought ...ouch

A: Can't feel guilty if you're not in control. 

Q: but I can't do a thing without them it seems..

A: Well, they are there, but check and see if the thought is really necessary. See if the thought is not just an overlay on the actions that are happening. A redundant running narrative. Just check it out. If thought pauses, do you disappear? Does your life stop happening?

Q: …and this goes for good or bad, as they swing and change

A: Right. They swing and change. So why do we get so hung up on always wanting to control them!? They’re just going to change anyway, no matter what.

Q: So I think you must not use thoughts the way I do,

A: Excellent! That’s the difference.

Q: You have no Me to defend

A: Right.

Q: Me being the doer, the controller, the one who uses thoughts to live life through

A: Good way to put it. So look and see, are you really a “one” who does any of this? Or is life just living through you, and you impose a narrative of thought to make a story out of it? You make a story of “Andy.” But is there really an “Andy”? Or is there just life being lived? Can't all this just go on, without the narrative? Does life need the narrative? 

Q: Life just rolls and you trust in that..doesn’t mean you don’t face the same situations, etc.

A: Right. I do face all the same situations. And life just rolls. But I don’t even feel the need to trust I’ll be okay, because I don’t believe there is anything here that can be hurt.

Q: I'm going to keep looking at the thoughts ..

A: Good. This is good stuff.

Q: Thanks again

A: You’re welcome

Later:

Q: I have been thinking about meditation…sorry I'm off track a little

The purpose being to quiet the mind

How ever I realized how pointless..

Trying to experience a state of nothing, no sound, no thought
and experience peace..

A: Trying is suffering.

Find that there is no one who needs to try, because there is nothing to get. Not even peace.

Q: Still there needs to be perceived peace, right..so how can that be true peace?

A: Right. The “me” that gets the perceived "peace" is the problem. When there is a “me,” there is no peace.

Q: Is peace the state which is prior to experience? It doesn’t require a perceiver?

A: There is perception, but that does not mean there is a separate entity doing the perceiving.

Q: States, experiences, etc. are in my head, so meditation in its absolute form would annihilate any thing..

Yet I know I am…

A: And that – knowing you are – does not cease with a pause in thought, or in an absolute meditation.

Q: Everything happens in this space…

A: With a pause in thought, where is this “Everything happens”? Is there anything happening, when there is a pause in thought?

Q: Will the “I am” be known if there is no state or experience?

A: Who would it be known by?

Q: You must have annihilated everything and arrived at the “I am.”

A: I didn’t need to annihilate anything, because it does not exist. In this pure point of “I am” consciousness, nothing exists.

When thought is paused, does anything exist?

I’m not saying I go around all day thinking, “I am this pure point of ‘I am’ consciousness.” I don’t. I just live life normally. But I have no emotional attachment to any of the things that arise in thought, because I’ve explored all this and found that no “Annette” exists, so there is nothing that can ever be hurt, not by thoughts, or swords, or anything! So the thought-form “Annette” is still there, but so transparent that nothing can grab onto it and cling. Not even fear of bodily harm. It passes right through.

Q: Yet for me, there is nothing I can grab onto? “I am” is nothing?? 

A: Yes, “I am” is nothing. And yet, you are! And you know that you are. Just pure, nothing, void, totality, unborn. You are this.

Is this “I am this” stuff part of my daily living? Not at all. It was thought through, and then left behind. Now, I just live life.

Q: What if this “I am-ness” dies along with the body? How can I know for sure it’s not another form or illusion?

A: Keep after the false belief in a thought-form called “Andy.” Can you see how these questions of “Andy’s body” and “after Andy dies” will be meaningless without the belief in Andy? Those questions will just dissolve later, so don’t spend time on them.

Q: So really I need to find out and prove my thoughts are not real...

A: The thought-form “Andy” is just a thought-form, not a real entity.

Q: You have annihilated all what the rest of us take as real…

A: Like I said before, I could not annihilate what was never there.

Q: You have used the mind to disprove its own separate existence...

A: That I did. Yes. This is very perceptive of you.

Q: So instead of quieting the mind, you use the mind, use it like a knife to cut though?

A: Yes. This is the only purpose of the mind! Can you believe it!? The only purpose of the mind is to find out it is useless.

Q: Wow, reminds me of Metallica [sic], “Use your Illusion,” haha.

So meditation should really be like self-inquiry – it takes work, right?

A: I don’t want to imply that there is any path or progress necessary to recognize right here and now what you already are, that all this is already done. But as long as the mind is still believing in itself, it can and should be used to undermine that belief. Then it is seen that the mind was never there. So you could call that "work." It's the only work in the world worth doing.  

But right here, right now, you are this. You are always just this. You always were. You never were anything else. You never were a separate person. You don’t have to grow spiritually or open or anything. You already are this.

Q: I might be so off here. Sorry, I was just playing with this.

A: Your discipline will pay off. You are on the right track. And I was ready to blow you off at first! You’re doing great.

Q: Thanks

A: My pleasure.

Later:

Q: Just had an a-ha moment. My thoughts can be turned around – anything can be seen in its polar opposite. My thinking is so changeable, so why bother to label anything with thoughts? They’re so easy to manipulate...

A: True.

Q: Okay, I’m struggling with something here.

If our thoughts are not real, or more specifically the thought of a “Me” or “I” or “Andy,” and our language is dualistic, as an example when you said “You need to bust your own suffering,” which implies a separate identity…

So when we are dealing with things in language and daily life, if we always reference this “me” concept, how is it you no longer believe in that?

A: I don't know. Just because there are references to it doesn't make me believe it. Do you believe in Santa Claus? And yet you can tell a whole long involved story about him to your kids, but you are totally clear that he doesn't really exist. 

Q: Without that belief, you are life living out a life...but so is anyone who has a belief in a “me.”

A: Sure. 

Q: What is plain and obvious is plain and obvious. Yes, there is this space for the world to be..

I can’t know this space. Yet everything is in it, including concepts and the little “me”…

so how can anything be different??

A: Right. Nothing can. 

Q: Thoughts arise, whether we take them as real or not…

now whether I take the natural state, basically this space, as me, or the concept of me…

nothing changes, just the reference point

knowing this reference point, you can take your story not so seriously??

A: Knowing that nothing can be different, I don't take my story seriously at all. 

Q: you know whatever comes up will, yet Andy doesn’t go away, the story lives in this space

will I let the character unfold without resistance to what is, or will I enforce a story of perceived control?

will I recognize the duality of thought, will I question it, or will I let it be?

if I let it be, life will roll...

so not taking thought so seriously, knowing the space will be, allowing all to be

will thoughts subside...will it be peace??

A: Thought seems to slow down and then stop when it doesn't have anything to refer to. 

If that's what you think of as peace, then yes. 

Q: I really can’t disprove this "I." I keep looking, and find nothing. But does that mean it’s not real?

A: According to you, you look right now and find no "I."

Right now is the only time there is. So if you can't find "I" now, when do you think you might find it?

If "I" is not here right now, then how can it ever possibly be? You can't find it now. Now is all there is. Can you ever find it now? Have you ever found it now? Do you think there is some other now that "I" might be found in?

Is there such thing as an other NOW?

Q: In this moment as I write, there is movement, fingers typing, thoughts flowing.. There never is a time or moment where I can say absolutely nothing is happening or going on.

my reference point is always mind/body, thoughts arising, vision, smell

How can there ever be a now moment that doesn’t contain everything? including a Me?

A: What is “a Me”? Are you certain there is “a Me”? What is it?

Q: It’s all happening, good bad indifferent...however time wouldn't exist without mind, body would not arise without mind...the space that it happens in, yes, it’s there, and seems to be so in some kind of timeless void, I can imagine it as imagining and all that arises is in it...

However, what is the point in saying that’s the true self? Why contain it as that? It’s allowing a Me to be here, to interact in this world of form, whether I see or recognize it or not.

A: You're drawing the right conclusion: there is no point in containing the true self with any labels. But can you pinpoint or define the “Me” you refer to? What is here that you call “a Me”? Is it substantial, or in thought?

Q: My reference point is like the empty space that fills all to be functional: look at a cup, without space it’s not whole nor functional. So I can recognize this, yet it makes no difference at all. The story rolls on, and to me it’s important, special, whether I see it as good or bad.

A: Who is this “me” that it is important to? It is important to….to what? To some thoughts?

Q: I get entrapped, and take the story as serious. Why not?

A: Indeed: why not?

Q: I can find “me” now. It is a thought that arises in this space of now. That happens now, too.

A: So, you are a thought?

Q: The space is there to be filled, ever changing, ever fresh, always there to allow whatever to be. When this body/mind is out of view, that space still is, and will be filled with more or not, I know that’s not my job to even want to know why.

Space is the giver of life to all, all in this space. I can see “me” as this person is a form in this space; I either take it seriously or not, doesn’t matter. The space will be filled – it’s glorious, perfect even, whether I want to recognize it as so or not.

A: Very nicely put.

Q: I find all in this space of now, but it’s like a spot on the bank of a river, the river flows by the spot.

A: Yes. The spot sees a tiny drop of the river as it flows by, and freezes it in time, and then calls that tiny, frozen, isolated drop “reality.”

The river sees nothing but itself. It flows right through the idea of “you,” frozen there on the bank. To the river, “you” are not there. There is only the river.

Q: Now is more like a space, all passes by in it, of it, with it. This now space contains all, a movie runs by endlessly, forms of wonder, I know they’re not everlasting, just like the cup, but the space for the cup will be there ready always to be used by any form. It’s an endless procession of change and forms, and it’s amazing how things seem designed so intricately, so perfectly, and this space is like the valley that allows the forest to play with the animals and rivers and mountains...

A: Good.

Q: Mind will create obstacles.

A: Will it? What is this “mind” that you think will create obstacles? If the river sees no mind and no obstacles, then are there actually any obstacles?

Q: Suffering is not realizing and recognizing this form is not forever.

A: Suffering is taking that form to be yourself.

Q: Thoughts are only a part of it...it’s taking this form as the real...

A: Isn't "taking this form as the real" another thought?

Q: ...and hanging on to it is suffering

A: Right.

Q: To be like the space, allowing all to be to take shape...wow, now that energizes!!

A: Yep!

Q: Now is filled with all, now is this space that contains it all.

Dropping the mind off and letting it be its own thing? Is that necessary?

A: No.

Q: Can peace not be found in just seeing this, let mind be, no altering, no deep penetration to prove it’s an illusion, to see that all will be in this space means I can acknowledge its existence and let it be pure allowing?

A: Yes. Very good. You see how the words fail at this point, but I think you’ve got the idea.

Q: Keeps coming back to this Me thing...

Gee, what is this Me, okay it’s a collection of things, forms…and I've just said form is impermanent, and to stop taking so seriously…hmmm

This morning while on the train, I was aware of the space around everything..

My focus was seeing how everything was supported, filled, and needs space...

Never really noticed it before…

Now where was this Me while I noticed...I didn’t notice, it was just space there, and all that was in it, body, thoughts, were in space...

A: Exactly.

Q: This space is impersonal, there was no Me involved in noticing it, as all was it...

A: Exactly.

Q: But the Me reference comes back, when the thoughts are central, and the body takes up all my awareness…

A: …which you just told me is not personal. So are you saying, a “me” reference comes back to this impersonal observing, and takes up the awareness of this impersonal observing? So what is the problem with that?

All problems are of the “personal.” But you have seen that you are impersonal. So how can there be a problem?

Q: Will this space awareness come back more often?...hmmm it’s always there just obscured

Sorry to keep bothering you.

A: You’re answering your own questions, Andy. Good work.

Q: I can see that living through memory is a very substandard way of life...

A: I agree!

Q: Only now is real, I see that now, and only now, recalled memory is recalled now.

So my idea of Me is a substandard way of interpreting Me, all there is about Me is now, maybe a painful Me, but it will change...

A: Everything changes constantly except that space within which it is changing….you talked a lot about the space last time.

Q: so I can be a Me, but only now?

A: I would counter that, but you already figured it out here:

Q: Is there any point in holding a Me that is so transitory, so flimsy?..

A: Right. That’s it. There’s no point in giving credence to something so transitory and flimsy. Now that you have fully seen how transitory “me” is, you won’t be able to “hold” it without it feeling like a big joke.

Q: The so-called karmic wheel is nothing more than living life through the past, now, over and over! Ha, how foolish!

A: Exactly!

Later:

Q: Just going over things…

form and formlessness…

reality consisting of form and the formless…in consciousness…not separate…in which the recognition that form is not who I am.

Was it an immediate seeing of this for you or a gradual recognition?

A: Right here, right now, is there a problem? I swear to you, this is the only thing that ever helped and ended my suffering. There is nothing else you need to deal with, ever, except right now, and right now there is no problem. Andy, truly, this is the key. Just stick with right now.

Later:

Q: I just got to laughing!

This is beyond simple.

The searching, I took as so important…

Thanks for being persistent with me!

A: Now you know the big secret! Nothing to get! This is good news, Andy.